Curse

ruk1a · Mar 02, 2011, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

And here come the old douchebags with their beloved Frenzy. It only works in organsied PvP, (basically most GvG and only a little HA). It's useless in PvE and unorganised PvP. Plus it's only one skill, only having one so called viable IAS is not good.

typical baddie that doesn't know how to use frenzy. it's fine, warrior ias is fine, gtfo.

HigherMinion · Mar 02, 2011, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Flail>Frenzy in PvE any day. Especially in HM, wtf are you guys on? Unless you're running gimmicky sh*t like an ER protter (which instantly makes you an awful player) you're going to get hit hard.

You just have to maintain Prot Spirit in mobs. Are you incapable of micro all of a sudden?

Del · Mar 02, 2011, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Flail>Frenzy in PvE any day. Especially in HM, wtf are you guys on? Unless you're running gimmicky sh*t like an ER protter (which instantly makes you an awful player) you're going to get hit hard.

If the mob is alive long enough for you to get the 4 adrenaline for flail you're instantly an awful player.

Xenomortis · Mar 02, 2011, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

And here come the old douchebags with their beloved Frenzy. It only works in organsied PvP, (basically most GvG and only a little HA). It's useless in PvE and unorganised PvP. Plus it's only one skill, only having one so called viable IAS is not good.

Well Flail is viable. But Frenzy is just outright better because the downside is so easily mitigated in PvE - Flail's downside just can't be mitigated and the adren requirement sucks.
If we're talking about PUGs then that's a little different - you then bring Rush too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Unless you're running gimmicky sh*t like an ER protter (which instantly makes you an awful player) you're going to get hit hard.

Protective Spirit.
Is taking a single skill (or indeed an entirely suitable bar) on a hero or human player sufficient to make me a bad player? I would say that's a reasonable condition for being a good player because I'm building appropriately.

Is it kinder to assume you're trolling or just being stupid?

On 25% vs 33%. It's not quite trivial - the damage difference is there. But I think really in the long run it's not too important and hardly noticeable.
Edit: It's approximately a 13% increase in the number of hits in a given time interval.

Skyy High · Mar 02, 2011, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Flail>Frenzy in PvE any day. Especially in HM, wtf are you guys on? Unless you're running gimmicky sh*t like an ER protter (which instantly makes you an awful player) you're going to get hit hard.

1) Running the best single-target prot + heal bar in the game makes you awful?
2) Only ER protters carry Prot Spirit?

Shayne Hawke · Mar 03, 2011, 12:14 AM // 00:14

I've got the feeling like Heart of Fury is the exception and not the norm to IAS in GW. Buffing warrior IAS in response to this new dervish tool is not the proper reaction.

LifeInfusion · Mar 03, 2011, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

If the mob is alive long enough for you to get the 4 adrenaline for flail you're instantly an awful player.

Enraging charge with 13 strength... it's instant.

Even without Enraging charge, it's 4*1.33=5.32 seconds. Of course, most mob groups are dead in 10-15 seconds with a competent team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I've got the feeling like Heart of Fury is the exception and not the norm to IAS in GW. Buffing warrior IAS in response to this new dervish tool is not the proper reaction.

This is true, but even before Heart of Fury was buffed, IAS skills akin to Tiger Stance were marginal. In PVP, Tiger Stance might as well not exist when Guardian, blind, blurred exist on top of block stances. In PVE it doesn't even last long enough in perfect conditions, so it should be like Burst of aggression: duration/recharge ~70-90%.

Berserker Stance is phenomenal (2.25x adrenaline vs no IAS... it's like Onslaught without the IMS) but its recharge and end condition are crap. If it ended on non-adrenaline skill and recharged in a reasonable 12 or 15 seconds we'd have something to work with. Right now it reads "do nothing for X seconds = strike of adrenaline/2.25 , recharge = 20seconds" or if you are counting vs Frenzy/Flail "do nothing for X seconds = strike of adrenaline/1.5 , recharge = 20seconds". Why bother wailing away 6 of your 9-11 seconds of IAS for +3 adrenaline gain (vs a normal IAS) if you could slot Enraging charge for +3 adrenaline instantly?

Flurry is only decent with conjures and stuff that isn't for damage (choking Gas back in the day)... The added damage on Flurry is marginal but it still adds 12.5% vs no IAS on base damage and +50% adrenaline vs no IAS gives you more attack skill damage.

@ people raging about Frenzy vs Flail in PVE: Frenzy under prot spirit still doubles damage. So the 100 or 116 Armor is acting as 60 or 76 and armor ignoring damage is doubled too. Prot spirit just caps the damage to around 50 or 60. It's no different than running a Ranger with a scythe. You still need to heal it. Given that a Dervish will be stacking enchants, d-kiss heals Dervishes easier as well. I did duncan HM the other day and I actually pulled +260s with D-kiss on a Healing Burst bar, not a UA or HB bar. The Dervish was running a few enchants, but he had a few hexes too.

Swingline · Mar 03, 2011, 02:18 AM // 02:18

If at the least the movement debuff was removed from flail to compensate for HoF warriors would become very OP. Best thing to do is nerf HoF and some of the other horrendously strong dervish skills. I seriously don't think Anet will fix it bc I have a feeling all the classes will see some skill changes in the near future.

Winterclaw · Mar 03, 2011, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I've got the feeling like Heart of Fury is the exception and not the norm to IAS in GW. Buffing warrior IAS in response to this new dervish tool is not the proper reaction.

I want to agree, but dervs also get onslaught and they get IMSs that aren't stances. So they can run with IAS and IMS as long as they can keep the enchants up. Warriors have to pick either/or.

byteme! · Mar 03, 2011, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

If the mob is alive long enough for you to get the 4 adrenaline for flail you're instantly an awful player.

If you "can't" gain the adrenaline necessary to fuel flail before the mob is completely wiped you're instantly an awful player.

I Echo Dshot · Mar 03, 2011, 05:44 AM // 05:44

As power creeps, player skill is more and more irrelevant, don't buff, nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

And here come the old douchebags with their beloved Frenzy. It only works in organsied PvP, (basically most GvG and only a little HA). It's useless in PvE and unorganised PvP. Plus it's only one skill, only having one so called viable IAS is not good.

Please discuss only within your knowledge.

MithranArkanere · Mar 03, 2011, 03:38 PM // 15:38

I don't think you should compare the IAS from two professions.

Just compare the rest of the Warrior IAS with Soldier's Stance, and you'll see the rest are lacking.

Soldier's Stance
Elite Stance. (5...13...15 seconds.) You have a 75% chance to block. You attack 33% faster while under the effects of a chant or shout.
* This is more than perfect as it is. More than looking at the 3 Dervish IAS, they should look at this one to balance the other Warrior IAS. Dwarven Battle stance is an elite too, and it's a bit more limited than this, since you must bring a hammer for the interrupts. All you have to do with this is bringing a lasting shout like "To the Limit!", and you are set. Bring Soldier's Strike, and you can hit a lot while they can't hit you much.

Berserker Stance
Stance. (5...10...11 seconds.) You attack 33% faster and gain 50% more adrenaline. Ends if you use a skill.
* Ending with any skill is a bit too much, since most damage comes from skills, specially in HM PvE. Maybe the end condition should be limited to a sub-set of skills. For example: non-adrenal skills or non-attack skills. Other than that it's fine.

Burst of Aggression
Stance. (2...8...10 seconds.) You attack 33% faster. End effect: lose all adrenaline.
* Losing all adrenaline can be quite annoying. Maybe it should last more at least, or have a good effect when it ends too, like recharging attack skills when it ends or something.

Dwarven Battle Stance
Elite Stance. (5...10...11 seconds.) You attack 33% faster, you gain +40 armor, and your attack skills interrupt actions. No effect unless you have a hammer equipped.
* Perfectly fine as it is. It interrupts peoples with hammers!!

Flail
Stance. (1...12...15 second[s].) You attack 33% faster. You move 33% slower.
* As long as you bring another stance with energy cost, it's perfectly fine. As you all know, the best choice is Enraging Charge.

Flurry
Stance. (5 seconds). You attack 33% faster. You do 25% less damage.
* It's ok for a non-linked skill, if you are the kind of guy that goes arond with Imaginary Weaponry it comes in handy. But I'd link it to Tactics, linking the duration and reducing the damage downside.
> Stance. (1...9...10 seconds). You attack 33% faster. You do 33..15..11% less damage. (Tactics)

Frenzy
Stance. (8 seconds.) You attack 33% faster. You take double damage.
* Taking double damage works fine when you bring skills that reduce damage upon a threshold. But no one should have to depend on having those on. Also, armor-ignoring skills are already good as they are. They shoiuld not affect a warrior under Frenzy. I'd link it to Strength, at least in PvE split, and change the increase in damage to decrease in armor.
> Stance. (8 seconds) You attack 33% faster. You have 40..18...12 less armor (minimum 40). (Strength)
With this, you'll have -16 armor with rank 13, so you'll just sacrifice the armor from a shield, if you bring one.
Also, theres no need to bring anyone's armor under 40 in PvE. Cracked armor can already get it to 60. I'd make this change to Healing Signet too, limiting the decreased armor to 40. This would benefit players without benefiting monsters.

Primal Rage
Elite Stance. (1...12...15 second[s].) You attack 33% faster and move 25% faster. You take double damage.
* Sames as with Frenzy. Change to derase in armor at least in PvE:
> Elite Stance. (1...12...15 second[s].) You attack 33% faster and move 25% faster. You have 40..18...12 less armor (minimum 40). (Strength)

Tiger Stance
Stance. (4...9...10 seconds.) You attack 33% faster. Ends if you fail to hit.
* The only thing it lacks is duration. Other than that, there is no problems with it. In PvP, just stop while they block or blind you, in PvE just bring asuran scan.

Khomet Si Netjer · Mar 03, 2011, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Flail>Frenzy in PvE any day. Especially in HM, wtf are you guys on? Unless you're running gimmicky sh*t like an ER protter (which instantly makes you an awful player) you're going to get hit hard.

Xsiriss, most people are clueless...

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/IAS_s..._by_profession

Here is a list of IAS skills, most of them providing improved attack speed with no drawbacks; in fact, the Warrior and Paragon IAS skills are the only ones with drawbacks. If you care about balance, this needs to change. The alternative is to have everyone jacked up on rock candy and celerity so they don't care about IAS skills at all which is how a lot of people play anyway.

For those suggesting frenzy in PvE... that is why monks hate leeroy warriors.

Also, regarding what MithranArkanere said... I'd have to agree that Soldier's Stance and Dwarven Battle Stance are far superior to the rest of the warrior IAS options, and they should be... they are elite. That doesn't mean that the other options have to be terrible.

Coast · Mar 03, 2011, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Xsiriss, most people are clueless...

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/IAS_s..._by_profession

Here is a list of IAS skills, most of them providing improved attack speed with no drawbacks; in fact, the Warrior and Paragon IAS skills are the only ones with drawbacks.

strange, rangers and sins also got drawbacks

LifeInfusion · Mar 03, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Tiger Stance
Stance. (4...9...10 seconds.) You attack 33% faster. Ends if you fail to hit.
* The only thing it lacks is duration. Other than that, there is no problems with it. In PvP, just stop while they block or blind you, in PvE just bring asuran scan.

Well using a PVE skill, whether it's dwarven stability (to make it last reasonably long) or asuran scan (to make it not end) is a pretty large investment. The problem with "just stopping" is it's not so easy. If it were on low recharge like 10 seconds maybe, but on 20 cooldown, one blind from Ebon dust aura or blinding flash and you're toast even though with a blind rune and shield it is supposed to last a few seconds. Similarly, if someone pops a tactics stance to block with, it's not like you can stop attacking midswing very easily.

Khomet Si Netjer · Mar 03, 2011, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

strange, rangers and sins also got drawbacks

re: ranger IAS, Tiger's Fury and Bestial Fury have the drawback that non attack skills are disabled... which matters little because an attacker with IAS *wants* to use attack skills. Heket's Rampage is an exception, it ends if you use an attack skill. However, aside from Heket's Rampage you have 2 skills with minor drawback (mentioned above) and 8 skills with no drawback at all.

re: assassin IAS, there are two, and neither have any drawback. Need I mention that assassins already attack faster than anyone thanks to double strikes and dual attack skills, and that they can run jagged/ff/db to get even faster than that?

so if people decide that all the new dervish IAS skills must be nerfed, that still doesn't fix assassin or ranger IAS. personally i think dervish ranger and assassin IAS are fine, it is paragon and warrior which need some attention.

Reverend Dr · Mar 03, 2011, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Frenzy should be the only IAS. It increases offensive power at the cost of defense. There is no other skill in this game that is anywhere as closed to balanced as frenzy.

Also for PvE suggesting anything other than consumables or drunken master (using it sober is still better than any other skill) is just absurd. With its 100% uptime, combination of IAS+IMS and low cost of 5 energy every 60-90 seconds, even a sober drunken master is on a tier above the other IAS skills.

yum · Mar 04, 2011, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Frenzy should be the only IAS. It increases offensive power at the cost of defense. There is no other skill in this game that is anywhere as closed to balanced as frenzy.

Agree. 123456789

MithranArkanere · Mar 04, 2011, 01:28 AM // 01:28

But that's just in PvP.

In PvE enemies already have built-in IAS, increased damage and armor.

You can't balance all the game based on how good a skill in in PvP. When ANet finally accepted that, the skill splits came to be.

While it is true that you can't split all skills, and some skills will always be more useful in PvP and others less than useful in PvE, you can't have a profession with too limited options.

If only 3 or 4 out of 9 IAS are viable in PvE, then one or two could change a bit to give more choices, even if it's just for PvE.

Beomagi · Mar 09, 2011, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Frenzy should be the only IAS. It increases offensive power at the cost of defense. There is no other skill in this game that is anywhere as closed to balanced as frenzy.

Not debating the "truth" of it, but a skill is balanced if it fits in with the average set of skills. If a skill is standing alone all by itself and not like the average, how can it be balanced?